So your big category is wins? In the article it says then when he doesn’t have a top 20 player in league history on his team, the guy is under 500. Meaning that he doesn’t win unless he has great people on his team, and he’s been in a situation where he’s had good players on his team. It’s a simple concept.

rah: At some point do you stat geeks watch the games or just collect data because I collect data and when he has anybody worth there weight it is CHAMPIONSHIP he has been to 6 in 13 years where is that STAT! In addition what is his playoff PER compared to those dudes it has to be Higher and if it isnt than the CATERGORY is in itself BS bc at no point do these STATS seem to reflect W-L. Really as an example New Orleans and CP3 it is obvious CP3 didnt play as good as he did last season or his team didnt which is his job as the PG they went from #2 in West to #7 and maybe the worst team in the Playoffs. Is it CP3 fault or not but I know what Kobe takes the blame for everything the Lakers have done or not done for every year he been in the league from airballs as a rookie to hitting every bucket to win down the strecth. All these other clowns NEVER EVER taking on that MONKEY and that includes that Gorilla Shaq who ask to be traded whenever his feelings hurt or he has to do real work to WIN ie play all 82 games at a high level on both ends and be in shape. So, Bron has Shaq now and Wade did too so really Kobe is still better bc he won with SHAQ 3 straight not 1 as Wade and Bron will still be 1 solo behind even if he wins 3 straight with Shaq which will not happen. Shaq just had Nash and Amarie and what was his PER that resulted in no PLAYOFFS that says about all it needs to say about that PER rating until it actually combines W-L it is FLUKE as all STATS and I am an ECONOMIST. I can make a spreadsheet say whatever I want or at work whatever my boss wants PERIOD. SO add win-loses and guess what KOBE on top bc he has been to 6 SHIPS!!!!!!!!

You’re essentially right in pointing out that this article focuses solely on numbers and their ability to determine how good a player is. All I wanted to emphasize is that the numbers don’t speak for everything, and shouldn’t. For example, I consider Bill Walton to be in the group of elite centers because of what he accomplished in his two fully healthy seasons with Portland, but I do realize that’s an unpopular position to take, especially in light of PER.

I won’t tell you that Kobe is more efficient that Jordan, Shaq or LeBron on the court, because he simply isn’t. I don’t think I even implied that in my previous post. And I don’t think I ever mentioned that I thought Kobe played better than LeBron vs. Orlando, aside from you implying it (in fact, if you want me to state it now, I was blown away by LeBron’s numbers in that series and elsewhere). He’s posting the best individual statistics since Jordan and Robertson at a younger age and with lesser teammates – my hat’s off to that. Statistically, he’s been the best player in the league since perhaps ‘06-07.

But I mean, statistics lay the foundation for sports, but shouldn’t the intangibles (feats, accomplishments etc.) play an important part too? I’m always going to be a part of that second camp, even though I know many people would vehemently ridicule me. I think it’s impossible to arrive at a consensus.

And if you accuse me of being emotional (read: treating subjects like these from the heart), that I definitely am, and it’s something about myself that I’m not going to change and it doesn’t take anything away from my logic, which you say I have none of…not exactly a nice accusation. I’m a film critic for the student newspaper and favor arthouse films over commercial entertainment, so maybe that contributes to my way of thinking. As someone who watched Kobe and the Lakers play for years through all the high and low moments of their careers and my own life, I’ve just gotten little tired of Kobe-bashing, but if you go by the numbers alone I won’t try to prove you wrong.

Well-written article.

I am a die hard Laker fan. (Used to work as an intern in basketball ops) But even through the numbers I see that no argument can be made that Kobe is in the company of Jordan, Shaq, or Lebron. For god’s sake, HE WAS NEVER EVEN THE BEST PLAYER ON HIS OWN TEAM TILL THIS YEAR!! You must not understand that point. While his performance in the finals against Indy was great, you must not think that Kobe is “lucky” to be in the spot where he played with the one of the most dominating big men of all time. So in essence my friend, he was lucky to be in that spot.

Also your mind is simply a pawn to state that Kobe and Jerry West were the only players in finals history to score 32 points and 7 assists a game. That’s like saying that, Jordan was the only person to average 35 points and 4 steals a game. You’re picking 2 stat categories and creating an achievement. I find that hilarious, why dont you just look at the entire body of work. You must think that just because Kobe’s team won against Orlando, Kobe had a better series than Lebron against the same team. The entire point of the article is isolating individual players. From that standpoint, there is no way in hell you can argue that Kobe had a better series. Your tiny mind can lead you to think with your heart, not with raw numbers.

You can name all the accolades in the world. All NBA this, All Defensive team that. Those are awards that are completely based on politics. Are you seriously telling me that Kobe Bryant is a better defender than Shane Battier? You’ll tell me, “yeah he is when he wants to be.” Those awards are laughable and have no credibility, especially when they stopped giving MVP to the best player in the league just to “mix it up.” (Jordan)

Let your Kobe love completely blind you. Best closer in the game, best player in the game, yada yada yada.

PS: Kindly explain this to me.

Kobe’s reputation as a “killer” at the end of games remains overblown. The site http://www.82games.com just posted a study of game-winning shots from the last five-plus seasons (regular seasons and playoffs since the 2003-04 season) that revealed Kobe was shooting 14-for-56 (25 percent) with one assist and five turnovers, and made 12 of 15 free throws. So let’s say that was 70 possessions total, including Sunday night. … He only had one assist in nearly six years??? That’s why Orlando quadruple-teamed him in that spot. Kobe is a phenomenal streak shooter, and he has a real talent for catching fire with a lead and closing games out … but you can stop him in one-shot situations simply because he’s his own worst enemy. He wants to be a hero, he’s shooting it, and that’s that.

Lebron averaged 38 8 and 8 against the same team just one series earlier. The article never said kobe isn’t great. Just not the best at getting stats. Kobe’s ‘09 playoff PER was 26.86, Lebron’s was a almost stupid, 37.43.

Kobe has a great story right now as you said and is a top 10 player in the league in PER. He’s just not the best in the league at PER like Jordan, Shaq, and Lebron were.

MCDRLx: LOL at this article and the haters. PER is the end-all of ranking the greatness of players – but only according to John Hollinger, whose statistical expertise I admire but procedures I consider remarkably flawed. If the NBA became a game where statistics ruled all, that’ll be the death of the league, my friends.
Take Holliger’s Top 10 NBA Finals performances rankings. I won’t rail about Dwyane Wade’s No. 1 position because, amazing as his top-ranked 33.8 PER is, his performance in the 2006 NBA Finals was undoubtedly one for the ages. In fact, aside from Wade, only THREE other players make up the list – Jordan 4 times, Shaq 3 times, Duncan 2 times.So does this mean all of you alleged PER adherents suddenly point to the all-encompassing nature of the PER stat and revise your opinions of Finals performances? Does this mean you discount Magic Johnson’s legendary 1980 and 1988 performances? Chauncey Billups’ 2004 performance is at 16, which suggests that it was better than Kareem’s barnstorming 1980 Finals and Bird’s near triple-double marvel in ‘86. LOL.Yes, PER is a good stat. A great one, even, ambitiously created to methodically rank a player’s individual merits. No, it isn’t the end-all of all rankings; and no, just because Kobe Bryant’s PER has been historically unimpressive (for his standards) doesn’t take away from the fact that he is INDEED the best player in the NBA right now, especially when judged by a combination of criteria that define prominent athletes: talent, work ethic, accolades, championships, records, longevity, and memorable moments.‘Kobe got lucky.’ LOL. Those three words stridently scream “hater.” If a 21-year old Kobe didn’t go off for 8 points late in the game and overtime vs. Indiana in the ‘00 NBA Finals, carrying the team after O’Neal fouled out, could there ever have been a three peat? Could O’Neal have gotten his Finals MVPs? What about the iconic Game 7 of the West finals vs. Portland in that same season, when Kobe put up 25 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, and 4 blocks and assisted on the most memorable play of the series – one of the great moments in franchise history?If you’re going to stick by numbers, realize that Kobe just became the first player since Jerry West (’69) to average over 32 points and 7 assists in an NBA Finals series. Realize that he captained the USA Redeem Team to Olympic Gold, steered many of the league’s brightest stars (James, Wade, Paul, Howard) to improve their game after growing under his leadership. (Confirmed by all four on different occasions.) Realize that we in the league have just witnessed one of the most remarkable 2-year stretches in league history by any player – 164 regular season games, 45 playoff games, Olympic Gold, 2 All-NBA First Teams, 2 All-Defensive First Teams, 2 All-Star selections, All-Star MVP, NBA MVP, NBA Finals MVP, a 65-17 season and a fourth championship without a single Hall of Fame-lock player playing alongside him.I apologize for the length. But bottom line is, if THAT doesn’t solidify his legacy as the best in the game today (and an argument-free berth in the all-time Top 10), then one thing is becoming quickly evident with respect to all of the vitriolic naysayers: you, good sirs, are simply HATERS.

Take Holliger’s Top 10 NBA Finals performances rankings. I won’t rail about Dwyane Wade’s No. 1 position because, amazing as his top-ranked 33.8 PER is, his performance in the 2006 NBA Finals was undoubtedly one for the ages. In fact, aside from Wade, only THREE other players make up the list – Jordan 4 times, Shaq 3 times, Duncan 2 times.

So does this mean all of you alleged PER adherents suddenly point to the all-encompassing nature of the PER stat and revise your opinions of Finals performances? Does this mean you discount Magic Johnson’s legendary 1980 and 1988 performances? Chauncey Billups’ 2004 performance is at 16, which suggests that it was better than Kareem’s barnstorming 1980 Finals and Bird’s near triple-double marvel in ‘86. LOL.

Yes, PER is a good stat. A great one, even, ambitiously created to methodically rank a player’s individual merits. No, it isn’t the end-all of all rankings; and no, just because Kobe Bryant’s PER has been historically unimpressive (for his standards) doesn’t take away from the fact that he is INDEED the best player in the NBA right now, especially when judged by a combination of criteria that define prominent athletes: talent, work ethic, accolades, championships, records, longevity, and memorable moments.

‘Kobe got lucky.’ LOL. Those three words stridently scream “hater.” If a 21-year old Kobe didn’t go off for 8 points late in the game and overtime vs. Indiana in the ‘00 NBA Finals, carrying the team after O’Neal fouled out, could there ever have been a three peat? Could O’Neal have gotten his Finals MVPs? What about the iconic Game 7 of the West finals vs. Portland in that same season, when Kobe put up 25 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, and 4 blocks and assisted on the most memorable play of the series – one of the great moments in franchise history?

If you’re going to stick by numbers, realize that Kobe just became the first player since Jerry West (’69) to average over 32 points and 7 assists in an NBA Finals series. Realize that he captained the USA Redeem Team to Olympic Gold, steered many of the league’s brightest stars (James, Wade, Paul, Howard) to improve their game after growing under his leadership. (Confirmed by all four on different occasions.) Realize that we in the league have just witnessed one of the most remarkable 2-year stretches in league history by any player – 164 regular season games, 45 playoff games, Olympic Gold, 2 All-NBA First Teams, 2 All-Defensive First Teams, 2 All-Star selections, All-Star MVP, NBA MVP, NBA Finals MVP, a 65-17 season and a fourth championship without a single Hall of Fame-lock player playing alongside him.

I apologize for the length. But bottom line is, if THAT doesn’t solidify his legacy as the best in the game today (and an argument-free berth in the all-time Top 10), then one thing is becoming quickly evident with respect to all of the vitriolic naysayers: you, good sirs, are simply HATERS.